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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5003
   |
Posted - 2014.03.20 22:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.
Smelt.
You smelt alumina to make aluminium
You also smelt aluminium scrap to make aluminium.
The process of rendering "stuff containing the metal I'm after" into "the metal I'm after" is smelting.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5003
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 22:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
Scyllyn wrote:Ask yourself would you rather play a game where you can be enjoying "end game" content in less than a fortnight or a game where it takes almost 8 months just to be able to melt rocks properly?
1) EVE doesn't have an end-game.
2) If you love WoW so much because of the "end game" (which is simply levelling your gear instead of your character), why don't you go back there?
3) All the games which try to replicate WoW's model fail. Why should EVE try to emulate WoW when it already has a model that has worked for 10 years?
4) EVE doesn't have an end-game, so discussion of "end game content" is meaningless.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5005
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 22:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Tarsas Phage wrote:Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail. Smelt. You smelt alumina to make aluminium You also smelt aluminium scrap to make aluminium. The process of rendering "stuff containing the metal I'm after" into "the metal I'm after" is smelting. Unfortunately this might get confused with "fishing for smelt." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smelt_(fish) :V
Or a new skill that involves manufacturing perfumes and GǪ less desirable fragrances.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5007
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 22:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:I might have missed it, but do starbase refining arrays now take skills into consideration? Not for now, GǪ
Someone who is not trained in industry can simply plug in a 4% implant (they have Cybernetics 5 already in order to use their High Grade Slaves), wander up to a POS and refine as efficiently as someone who has focussed on the appropriate skills. This needs to change so that industry-focussed characters have some advantage over combat-focussed characters when it comes to doing industry stuff.
I hope you can turn "not for now" into "it's on the roadmap for summer/winter 201x" soon :)
Why do refineries in EVE smelt a billion tonnes of ore into metal instantly, when it takes days to manufacture that battleship in the first place? In the words of Pauline Hanson, "I just don't like it!" Ideally, there should be limits to throughput in order to provide other avenues for improvement GÇö either by skills or advanced refinery designs GÇö in order for one group of industrialists to gain a edge over another.
Thank you for these changes so far, CCP, it's a good direction to be heading in order to remove the extreme advantages of NPC supported industry in hi sec over industry in low and null.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5008
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 23:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Weaselior wrote:
the 200 days [of training] was me, and much of that is highend ores, you can bust out all highsec ores easily by patch day, and that also included ampV because i was inattentive to my skillplan (whoops)
since i am an overman and live in null i may have need of highend refining as well so i'll do that but someone with zero refining skills can become a perfect veldspar refiner in under 30d then its about 5 days max for each additional highsec ore, so the people scrabbling in the dirt in highsec don't have that sort of training time
Weaselior has a point, GǪ I stopped at level 4 because there was no advantage to moving up to 5. Now there is an advantage to getting level 5 trained, and -- as Weaselior noted -- it's going to take me more than 200 days to get all of these skills from level 4 to level 5. It's physically impossible to get all of this done before the patch drops this summer.
One option: form a corporation, make friends who are industrialists too. Then each of you can focus on different refining skills. Ultimately you'll get that 4 -> 5 training done much faster by having each corp member specialise until the entire corp is capable of perfect refines. Then you can all "backfill" the other refining skills over the entire 200-day period required.
Weaselior is only complaining because he has no friends and is not a team player. Or maybe he just likes complaining.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5012
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 11:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time).
All player-driven industry should be better than any NPC-driven industry.
Rather than allow compression at stations, it should simply be possible to arrange for courier contracts to deliver things to POSes in some manner: for example a CHA anchored outside the shield (or a removal of the need for a POS shield at all).
Then there's always the option of replacing courier contracts with buy orders.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5014
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 03:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:And as an added benefit it becomes very lucrative to ship stuff to null to refine, then ship it right back to jita to sell. Goons for arbitrage, anyone? fuel ain't free nothing in highsec would be worth doing that, except in certain border stations with a freighter (and in those, drag bubble the freighter for some hilarious kills)
20% of the value of a hauler full of compressed ores is worth the fuel cost of hauling, no?
Even better, you haul junk rich in low ends to null sec, then haul junk rich in high ends back to hi sec. No more deadheads. Now you know why Minmatar ships are built out of scrap metal: because the Minmatar specialise in scrap metal arbitrage. Why convert the metal into junk to store in a spaceship hold when you can convert the metal into a junk spaceship?
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5014
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 04:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Querns wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Querns wrote:The odds of getting the scrap metal reprocessing nerf reversed are almost infinitesimal. Having that safety net in place allows CCP far too much freedom in adjusting build materials and module sizes to have any chance of being reversed. It's non-negotiable. there is absolutely nothing stopping CCP from simply doubling the minerals in meta 1-4 loot. there is a chance that part get's nerfed/fixed and i really hope they adjust it a bit. i need to know some better numbers before i made a definite statement (how much loot is actually reprocessed and how many minerals come from it) This is probably the first legitimate fix to the problem I've seen, actually. If the space junk collection industry is something CCP wishes to preserve, this would be a great way to go about it, instead of kneejerking and calling for a complete reversal of the entire proposal.
As much as I benefit from the space junk recycling program, just remember that minerals from loot directly compete with a profession entirely based on producing minerals.
I'll resort to a WoW anecdote here: in Gnomeregan (the 'homeland" of the Gnomes, which has now been overrun by the Dark Iron Dwarves thanks to betrayal by the power-mad Gnomish leader Mekatorque) you can pick up "dirty objects". At a certain location within Gnomeregan you can put these "dirty items" into a washing machine, insert some coins, and out comes a cleaned object which will be a random item with random enchantments (sometimes a useless "grey" object, sometimes vendor trash, sometimes a green ring with decent stats).
I wonder if there's a similar possibility for salvaging: replace all the T1 loot with "metal scraps" which can then be "reprocessed" to produce random junk ranging from a few lumps of minerals through to high-end T1 salvage materials. Thus you can "restore" the value of the salvaging profession, remove the "mining with guns" aspect of NPC-shooting, and have a valuable specialist market for "salvage laundering".
As it stands, the most valuable missions in terms of contract salvaging are the ones that leave behind tags, the ones with a lot of loot such as Mordus Headhunters and Gone Berserk, and the ones that have lots of battleship wrecks to salvage (from a faction which tends to leave good salvage) such as Serpentis or Blood Raiders.
The immediate effect of the planned change to reprocessing is that contract salvagers like Pro Synergy are going to lose income simply because the loot that is collected will be worth less than it used to be. Until the market values estimates adjust, the missioners contracting tag-heavy salvage fields will be losing income to missioners contracting loot-heavy salvage fields (this is because Pro Synergy uses the market value estimate to calculate shares of the final haul value, rather than recording every single item collected for a particular mission-runner). So Pro Synergy will be in for a rough few weeks until the estimates adjust.
Thankfully CCP Soundwave is gone, so we won't face the spectre of salvage being purchasable with LP from the FW LP stores. At least that part of a salvager's income is relatively stable and secure.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5015
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 14:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They have never been an asset in null. Refining was always done in high sec and if null is so great why do we find almost all mining bots in high sec?
Because that's the only place you look, and you're not allowed to report blue bots in null?
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5016
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 02:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Having an outpost with better refining capability than a POS is rather offensive.
First, this goes against the idea of "farms and fields" GÇö the point of which is to allow aggressors to deny utility without having to wholesale invade the entire region. Reinforcing a POS is easier for small fleets than reinforcing an outpost.
Second, a POS can be destroyed, looted, and sold for parts & scrap value. Thus outposts violate the much-vaunted "risk versus reward" balance: the outpost has precisely 0 chance of loss since it cannot be destroyed. The only risk to a business running from an outpost is temporary interruption of production.
Outposts already have the advantage of more assembly lines, greater storage capacity and ability to be the pickup or delivery end of a courier contract. They don't need any more advantages.
I can't wait to see the changes CCP has in mind for manufacturing and other activity lines. I'll take this opportunity to remind CCP of the principles of game design espoused by CCP Soundwave:
- No game should be more complex than it absolutely needs to be to meet its goals.
- A good feature can be based on positive or negative player interaction.
- Other players will always be more interesting, for longer, than designed experiences.
- Every system should affect, and be affected by, the wider world of the game.
- Here are the tools, do something cool with them.
- The social experience is more important than practical system balance; the interaction between winners and losers is more interesting than mechanical equality.
- Interactions should be about reaching and touching, more than reading numbers.
- Things in the world need to make sense.
- Players are not entitled to success. There should be an achievement mountain, with players able to find their level and strive to be better.
Having outposts being more efficient at refining than POSes violates the principles of interaction (you can't negatively interact with an outpost apart from reinforcing it: there's no risk of loss) and entitlement.
Running an outpost is only a matter of ISK. They don't consume fuel, there's no balancing of which modules to put online given the constraints of PG and CPU, and there's no risk of someone stealing all your stuff.
Running a POS is a much more interactive proposition. You have to scale that achievement mountain. You need to combine efforts with other players or go mad in the meantime. There is a real risk that your investment in time and ISK will be destroyed by other players. There is the risk that you could be betrayed by your corp mates who steal from the POS or even simply "forget" to fuel it.
The only smelting advantage should be based on a POS module that can only be anchored in 0.4 and below. There should not be an additional mechanical advantage given to an indestructible structure which requires no maintenance. If outposts were to become destructible and required fuel to maintain, I'd back down on this complaint a little: but I'd still want the efficiency advantage to be held by POSes simply because the poor suckers running POSes need some reward for their self-flagellation.
POSes make sense. Outposts do not.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5018
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Posted - 2014.03.26 05:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Querns wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:
Having outposts being more efficient at refining than POSes violates the principles of interaction (you can't negatively interact with an outpost apart from reinforcing it: there's no risk of loss) and entitlement.
You are aware that outposts can be conquered, right? If you don't like that an outpost has better reprocessing rates than your pos, take it for yourself.
And if someone captures your outpost, what happens to your materials? Nothing. You just fly them away once the invaders have gotten bored of bubbling the station.
Contrast this to a POS which will be utterly destroyed. Your materials will be gone, and you won't be able to simply return to the POS after the invaders have calmed down in order to rescue the goods you left behind.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5031
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 10:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Once an Outpost is Captured by another entity the previous owners have no access to it. Anything they had inside it remains there forever unless they join the group who captured it or can retake it.
Or you stay there and ship your stuff out when it's safe to undock.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5039
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 13:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Firvain wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Once an Outpost is Captured by another entity the previous owners have no access to it. Anything they had inside it remains there forever unless they join the group who captured it or can retake it.
Or you stay there and ship your stuff out when it's safe to undock. yeah coz undocking freighters full of minerals is such a good plan in hostile space where you cant dock back up ^^ If your outpost full of minerals gets taken, you throw them on the market, no one is going to try and save freighter loads of trit lol
Market, contracts, whatever. The stuff in the outpost isn't lost, though it may be difficult to access. You can just conquer the outpost back and pick up where you left off. The same is not true for a POS: once it's blown up, it's gone.
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